(26.03.2009, 22:52)silvermane link schrieb: pms_wl_d_chorzow_aks.gif
pms_wl_d_chorzow_ruch.gif
:o
;D yes, silvermane, these teams respectively their predecessors played in the "Südostdeutsche Fußballverband" before 1945, but with other names. So they got the nationality "german". Only very few of the old clubs of this period have succeeding clubs up to now, but where they have, I mention them in these databases. Ok, the logos of these two will get the _pol_ in the next update. But as the database ends in 1945, I will not use them any more, if I get the correct logos of that time.
Mfg Michael
p. s.: I've done it already, but in my database they are still called Bismarckhütter SV 99 res. FV Germania Königshütte, both german (several changes in nationality during this period of history cannot be reflected due to limitations in DFS, sorry)
Aber ich lasse das von Ruch Chorzow trotzdem mal oben stehen, in der Polen DB ist noch ein etwas anderes, und dieses ist das eindeutig aktuelle. Und da ich meine, die Qualität könnte schon für die Vorschläge reichen, könnte man das ja direkt für die Polen-DB nutzen. Es sei denn, der Polen-DB-Ersteller mag es nicht, und behält lieber das alte.
Zitat:yes, silvermane, these teams respectively their predecessors played in the "Südostdeutsche Fußballverband" before 1945, but with other names
I know - but I was surprised at your choice of the file name. Why not name them dfs_wl_d_bismarckhuetter_sv_99 and dfs_wl_koenigshuette_germania_fv, respectively? AKS even has a separate logo as FV Germania (which you also used). Besides, Ruch never played in any competition organized by the DFB, and was a Polish club from the start, so using its logo to represent SV 99 Bismarckhütter is definitely not correct.
(27.03.2009, 08:37)silvermane link schrieb: I know - but I was surprised at your choice of the file name.
Yes, and I must apologize for that - I hope you believe me that there have not been any intentions included that you regrettably hear or read from the "Bund der Vertriebenen" here in Germany about regions in the former german east. I am definitely NOT of that political opinion!
Zitat:Why not name them dfs_wl_d_bismarckhuetter_sv_99 and dfs_wl_koenigshuette_germania_fv, respectively?
The problem is, that these would be the wrong filenames for these two logos, what you can easily prove only by reading the text shown on the logo itself.
Zitat:AKS even has a separate logo as FV Germania (which you also used).
Yes, and that is the only logo I use in all seasons in my database. But as you can read here AKS Chorzów can be correctly tagged as a legal successor of FV Germania. So I merely want to mention this fact in the "Mannschaften verwalten" function in DFS for means of completeness. And only there the AKS logo is used in my DB, as I think correctly.
Zitat:Besides, Ruch never played in any competition organized by the DFB, and was a Polish club from the start, so using its logo to represent SV 99 Bismarckhütter is definitely not correct.
I thank you for this information, since my research on this club supplies contradicting results. Especially from what is written here you can come to the conclusion that Bismarkhütter SV 99 stands in the sequence of Ruch Chorzów. I will change that. Unfortunately, I have found no logo of Bismarkhütter SV 99. :-\
But what about you using this newest logo for the Poland-DB? I think it's better than the actual one, where the blue is too dark and the drawing is a bit different imho?
Zitat:Yes, and I must apologize for that - I hope you believe me that there have not been any intentions included that you regrettably hear or read from the "Bund der Vertriebenen" here in Germany about regions in the former german east. I am definitely NOT of that political opinion!
No offense taken - I did not think about this being related to the BdV
Zitat:The problem is, that these would be the wrong filenames for these two logos, what you can easily prove only by reading the text shown on the logo itself.
Of course, but these logos do not belong here - they were certainly not used by these clubs while they were members of the DFB.
Zitat:Yes, and that is the only logo I use in all seasons in my database. But as you can read here AKS Chorzów can be correctly tagged as a legal successor of FV Germania. So I merely want to mention this fact in the "Mannschaften verwalten" function in DFS for means of completeness. And only there the AKS logo is used in my DB, as I think correctly.
What I don't understand is why you have AKS Chorzów under ID 1 000 000 163, separately from the pre-WW2 VfR/AKS/Germania Chorzów (ID 1 000 000 038, with the correct logo). What is the purpose of this entry?
Zitat:I thank you for this information, since my research on this club supplies contradicting results. Especially from what is written here you can come to the conclusion that Bismarkhütter SV 99 stands in the sequence of Ruch Chorzów.
Ruch was founded on April 20, 1920 in Bismarckhütte (the name "Hajduki Wielkie" was not officially used until 1923), as an exclusively Polish club. It was soon affiliated with the Polish FA and started playing regional championship (A klasa) qualifying matches in July 1920. The competition proper started in December 1920, and Ruch finished third. In 1922, it won the regional competition and debuted in the finals of the Polish championship.
Bismarckhütter Ballspiel Club was founded in 1908 and merged with Ruch on January 7, 1923 (the name was changed to Ruch BBC Wielkie Hajduki). BBC brought in a better quality pitch (the so-called "Na Kalinie" or "Hasiok"), which Ruch used until 1935.
When WW2 started, Ruch was first dissolved, but in November 1939 got reactivated as Bismarckhütter Sport Vereinigung 1899 e.V. (mostly with the same players), under which name it played until 1945 in Gauliga Oberschlesien. Legally, though, it was a continuation of BBC rather than Ruch, because BBC was a member of the DFB until 1922, when it found itself in Poland. Together with over 140 other clubs, it was a founder member of the Wojewodschaft Fußballverband (WFV), a short-lived association of German clubs in Polish Upper Silesia.
By the way, Ruch does not mean "Vorwärts" in German, but something like "Bewengung" (cf. Widerstandsbewegung = resistance movement).
(27.03.2009, 14:42)silvermane link schrieb: No offense taken - I did not think about this being related to the BdV
Glad to hear that you didn't misunderstand me.
Zitat:Of course, but these logos do not belong here - they were certainly not used by these clubs while they were members of the DFB.
I think you are right with the one of Ruch. There is no need to refer to it in this DB at all. But I am sure AKS is the legal successor, so I would prefer to leave it in the database only to demonstrate how the club has developed further after the war.
Zitat:What I don't understand is why you have AKS Chorzów under ID 1 000 000 163, separately from the pre-WW2 VfR/AKS/Germania Chorzów (ID 1 000 000 038, with the correct logo). What is the purpose of this entry?
As I understand my sources, I think it's clear by what I just wrote. I want my database to reflect the historical development of all mentioned clubs in a most complete and correct way, up to nowadays if still existing, so imho this belongs there. And if you mean why I made two different entries - that's the same reason as in my other DBs: I cannot supply different logos to one ID.
Zitat:Ruch was founded on April 20, 1920 in Bismarckhütte (the name "Hajduki Wielkie" was not officially used until 1923)
In one of my sources it was first called "Bismarkhucie" in Polish, and the name of the town was officially changed to "Wielkie Hajduki" on January 1st, 1923. So this information seems to be correct, as you can verify it.
Zitat:as an exclusively Polish club. It was soon affiliated with the Polish FA and started playing regional championship (A klasa) qualifying matches in July 1920. The competition proper started in December 1920, and Ruch finished third. In 1922, it won the regional competition and debuted in the finals of the Polish championship.
Bismarckhütter Ballspiel Club was founded in 1908 and merged with Ruch on January 7, 1923 (the name was changed to Ruch BBC Wielkie Hajduki). BBC brought in a better quality pitch (the so-called "Na Kalinie" or "Hasiok"), which Ruch used until 1935.
When WW2 started, Ruch was first dissolved, but in November 1939 got reactivated as Bismarckhütter Sport Vereinigung 1899 e.V. (mostly with the same players), under which name it played until 1945 in Gauliga Oberschlesien. Legally, though, it was a continuation of BBC rather than Ruch, because BBC was a member of the DFB until 1922, when it found itself in Poland. Together with over 140 other clubs, it was a founder member of the Wojewodschaft Fußballverband (WFV), a short-lived association of German clubs in Polish Upper Silesia.
Thank you very much for this background information. It's hard to find reliable sources, especially if you don't speak polish! O0 But by some of your statements (as: mostly with the same players) it may be better to involve Ruch in this sequence. I should only mention the facts you state here to give the user a more correct view of that period of football clubs in that region.
Zitat:By the way, Ruch does not mean "Vorwärts" in German, but something like "Bewengung" (cf. Widerstandsbewegung = resistance movement).
Sorry for that mistake, but I found this literally in one of my sources. :o
(27.03.2009, 21:28)Senfi link schrieb: Kann mir mal einer das übersetzten. Will ja nicht doof sterben :-\
(27.03.2009, 23:14)Hermi link schrieb: ja mir geht es genau so, :bahnhof:
leider :'( :'( spreche ich kein Englisch
und ich kann nur Anglerlatein... ;D
Nein, da gibt's nicht viel zu erzählen. Silvermane hat mich auf ein paar sachliche Unstimmigkeiten in dieser DB hingewiesen, zu denen ich widersprüchliche Quellen habe. Im Detail muss ich das glaube ich nicht übersetzen, den "Ausfluss" dieser Diskussion wird man in der nächsten Version der DB sehen können. Aber nicht ganz so schnell, ich muss erst einen Monat bei den aktuellen DBs nachholen.
Aber nicht ganz so schnell, ich muss erst einen Monat bei den aktuellen DBs nachholen. 